WISDOM FROM Within

Without Your Heart, There’s Nothing with Ben Katt | Ep. 3

About the Guest

Ben Katt has been helping people experience deep transformation and access lives of greater joy, compassion, and purpose for the past 20 years. He is the author of The Way Home: Discovering the Hero’s Journey to Wholeness at Midlife — a guidebook and memoir about the inner journey we must embark on to live our fullest lives. Ben is the founder of the Within Prison Meditation Project, volunteers as a hospice companion, and writes weekly in his Within newsletter. He is a certified advanced meditation teacher of the One Giant Mind Technique, holds a Master of Divinity degree, and was an ordained minister for over a decade. Previously, he led the On Being Project’s work supporting religious and spiritual leaders in social healing. He regularly leads workshops at Modern Elder Academy campuses in Santa Fe and Baja, California.

Episode Summary

In this deeply honest and often funny conversation, Jen Aks sits down with author and transformation guide Ben Katt to explore what it really means to follow your inner voice when the external world is pulling you in every direction. Ben shares his journey from ministry and community work in Seattle — where he lost himself to a savior complex and burnout — to the rainy morning run where a voice inside him said, ‘If you don’t have your heart, you have nothing.’ He walks through his framework for the inner journey, inspired by Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey, and offers remarkably grounded, practical wisdom on trust, letting go, masks, and what it truly means to find and live your purpose. Oh, and both Ben and Jen reveal they were once mascots. It gets good.

What You’ll Learn

• What it means to live an ‘externally referenced life’ — and how to recognize if you’ve been doing it

• Why the way forward is always within — and how Ben arrived at that truth through burnout and loss of self

• How to identify the ‘three-headed monster’ of achievement, perfection, and people-pleasing in your own life

• The three phases of Ben’s inner journey framework: leave the familiar, fall into the unknown, rise to wholeness

• Why letting go isn’t about changing your job or relationship — it’s about shedding the masks you mistake for your identity

• How to start building trust in your inner voice — beginning with small, low-stakes decisions

• What Carl Jung’s concept of the ‘persona’ has to do with mascots, rhinoceros costumes, and your authentic self

• What dharma really means — and why purpose is not a job title, it’s a moment-to-moment practice

• Why doing inner work isn’t selfish — it’s actually essential for everyone around you

• Why the hero’s journey isn’t just for midlife — it’s for anyone at any age who is ready to listen

Key Concepts Introduced

• The Way Forward Is Within — Ben’s core philosophy: inner authority is always accessible; we just forget it

• The Three-Headed Monster — achievement, perfection, and people-pleasing as a toxic operating pattern

• The Hero’s Journey (Joseph Campbell) — three phases: leave the familiar, fall into the unknown, rise to wholeness

• The Mascot / The Mask — Carl Jung’s ‘persona’: the identity we construct to survive that eventually limits us

• The Boon — Campbell’s term for the gift the hero returns with to serve the collective after inner transformation

• Dharma — spontaneous right action; your particular role in the evolution of things, expressed moment to moment

• Answering the Call — the first step of the hero’s journey: saying yes to the inner invitation, however uncomfortable

Resources & People Mentioned

• The Way Home: Discovering the Hero’s Journey to Wholeness at Midlife — Ben’s book (available everywhere books are sold, plus Audible, Spotify, Apple Books — narrated by Ben himself)

• BenKattOfficial.com — Ben’s website

• Modern Elder Academy (meawisdom.com) — the world’s first midlife wisdom school; campuses in Santa Fe and Baja, California

• Within Prison Meditation Project — Ben’s nonprofit bringing meditation to incarcerated individuals

• One Giant Mind Technique — the meditation method in which Ben is a certified advanced teacher

• Joseph Campbell — mythologist; author of The Hero with a Thousand Faces; originator of the hero’s journey framework

• Carl Jung — psychologist; concept of the ‘persona’ referenced in the masks discussion

• Ron — Ben’s mentor; corporate executive coach who gave him a journal on his hardest day and changed everything

• On Being Project — organization where Ben previously led work supporting spiritual leaders in social healing

Quotes From This Episode

“If you don’t have your heart, you have nothing.”

“Stop looking outward. In fact, you have this inner authority — it’s always there. This calm, this wisdom, this joy, this presence.”

“My soul kind of turned off the lights and snuck out the back door.”

“Don’t let people see your true face. Don’t speak with your authentic voice. Those were the mascot rules — and they were how I was living my life.”

“You have within you everything you need to navigate this. You just have to trust it.”

“Purpose is not a job. Purpose is: in this moment, are you able to meet the person in front of you where they’re at?”

“What I’m doing for myself is also for the collective.”

CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 Welcome & Episode Intro

Jen sets the stage: this is a conversation about internal voices vs. external expectations — and how to know which one to follow.

01:00 Introducing Ben Katt

Jen reads Ben’s impressive bio — minister, meditation teacher, hospice volunteer, prison project founder, and author.

03:11 Wait… He Lives With a Bunny?

The bio trails off into a laugh. Ben clarifies: not a bunny-shaped house. Just Posey the Holland Lop — and now a puppy too.

03:54 The Way Forward Is Within

Jen asks about Ben’s core tagline. He unpacks what it means to live an externally referenced life — and why the answers have always been inside.

06:00 Stop Rearranging the Chairs

Ben introduces his Titanic metaphor: when life isn’t working, we try to rearrange things externally instead of going within first.

06:39 How Did Ben Arrive Here?

Jen asks about his personal journey. Ben traces two threads: a childhood connection to something deeper, and a container he eventually outgrew.

08:00 The Potted Plant: Outgrowing Your Container

Ben describes leaving his church community not out of rejection — but because, like a plant, his roots had grown too big for the pot.

08:31 A Master of Divinity Walks Into a Podcast

Ben laughs about his degree. What does it mean? He’s a seeker and an explorer — not quite a master of anything divine.

09:00 Building Community With the Forgotten

Ben describes the community center he founded in Seattle — building relationships with people experiencing homelessness, addiction, and trafficking.

10:00 The Savior Complex — and Losing His Soul

In virtuous, impactful work, Ben quietly lost himself. Achievement, perfection, people-pleasing became his operating system.

10:53 The Voice on the Hill

On a rainy morning run in Seattle, Ben stops at the top of a hill. A voice wells up: ‘If you don’t have your heart, you have nothing.’

11:34 Was It Actually a Voice?

Jen presses — was this literal? Ben confirms: clear as day. He pulled out his AirPods, walked home in the rain, and climbed into bed.

12:33 The Three-Headed Monster

Ben names his operating pattern: achievement, perfection, and people-pleasing — and the warning signs he’d been ignoring for years.

13:55 How Did You Know It Was a Positive Call?

Jen asks the key question. Ben’s answer: his mentor Ron, a journal, and a shopping mall walk that changed everything.

15:30 You’re More Buoyant Than You Realize

Ben recounts what Ron said across the booth — and how it became his north star: you have within you everything you need.

16:25 Step Two: Get Help

Ben introduces the second phase of the hero’s journey. When you say yes to the call, help arrives. Nature supports you.

16:51 On Trust — There’s No Wrong Turn

Jen and Ben explore the hardest part of inner guidance: trusting it. Their conclusion: take the next right step, even if it leads to a rumble strip.

18:30 Step Three: Let Go — Enter Blitz the Rhino

Ben introduces the third step with a story. He was once a gray, fuzzy arena football mascot named Blitz. Two rules: don’t take your head off, and don’t speak.

20:15 The Mascot Rules Were How He Lived His Life

Don’t let people see your true face. Don’t speak with your authentic voice. The mascot rules become a mirror for how Ben operated in the world.

20:58 Carl Jung and the Persona

Ben connects mascots to Jung’s concept of the persona — the mask the ego creates to fit in, get needs met, and stay safe. Helpful at first. Limiting later.

22:23 Jen Was Battletoads — And Got Fired

Jen reveals her own mascot origin story. The rule was don’t speak. She spoke. She was fired. The room erupts.

23:24 The Clown in the Principal’s Office

Ben’s mascot story lands on a gut-punch moment: a clown finds him emotional in the changing room and says, ‘It’s okay. I’m a clown.’

24:00 Befriend the Darkness

Once the mask comes off, you’re in the unknown. Ben’s advice: befriend that space. Don’t run. Revelation happens there.

25:12 Why Inner Work Is for Everyone

Jen expands the conversation: this isn’t just for service leaders or entrepreneurs. Leadership is showing up for your neighbor, your child, your community.

26:23 The Three Phases of the Hero’s Journey

Ben maps his full framework: leave the familiar, fall into the unknown, rise to wholeness — and the boon you return with to serve the world.

28:00 You Can’t Do Good Work From an Empty Being

Ben’s most direct challenge to busy leaders: if you’re not tending to your inner life, you’re embodying the opposite of what you’re trying to create.

29:31 Leadership Isn’t Just Corporate America

Jen reframes leadership: it’s the person who pays their bills and finds passion elsewhere, the neighbor, the parent. Connection to self is the foundation, full stop.

30:34 What Is Purpose, Really?

Ben introduces dharma — spontaneous right action. Purpose isn’t your job. It’s whether, in this moment, you can meet the person in front of you where they are.

32:09 Where to Find the Book & Connect With Ben

BenKattOfficial.com, meawisdom.com, Modern Elder Academy workshops, and the audiobook — narrated by Ben himself.

33:47 Does Ben Work With Younger Adults?

Jen asks about teens and college students. Ben’s answer: this journey is for everyone. The midlife label was the publisher’s idea.

35:08 Closing & See You Next Week

Jen wraps with warmth and gratitude. See you next week on Wisdom From Within — where human stories awaken the leadership within.