JEN AKS 0:00
Welcome to the Wisdom From Within podcast. My name is Jen Aks, and I am your host. This is where mindset meets bodyset, where we access both so that we can make the most genuine, authentic, empowered impact on those we love and those we serve. Let's get started.
All right. I am so excited to share this conversation with you. I was extremely moved the entire time. This is an honest conversation about what do we do when we hear those internal voices and we're battling the external expectations. Which one do we follow? And when do we know it's right? And when do we know it's time to pivot?
Well, Ben's story is a beautiful example. He imparts so much wisdom and advice, and I'm just thrilled that he shared so honestly. We also share some humor along the way, so stay in it with us until the end. You're going to get a lot of value from this conversation. And my hope is that this awakens something within you too. Okay, here we go.
For those of you that are listening now — how lucky, lucky you — and those that come back later, lucky, lucky you. We are with Ben Katt on the Wisdom From Within podcast, which is where human stories awaken leadership from within. And this is your expertise and this is your jam.
I'm going to tell the listeners who you are briefly, and then we're going to jump in. So Ben has been helping people experience deep transformation and access lives of greater joy — which is what we just spoke about — compassion and purpose for the past 20 years. His first book, The Way Home: Discovering the Hero's Journey to Wholeness at Midlife, is a guidebook and memoir about the inner journey we must embark on in order to live our fullest lives. Ben is the founder of the Within Prison Meditation Project, volunteers as a hospice companion, and writes regularly about the inner journey in his weekly Within newsletter. And — let's go. What alignment.
Ben is a certified advanced meditation teacher of the world-renowned One Giant Mind Technique, holds a Master of Divinity degree, and was an ordained minister for over a decade. Previously, he led the On Being Project's work in supporting religious and spiritual leaders in the work of social healing. Ben is an expert at adapting ancient personal development practices for modern contexts in order to help people wake up to who they are and why they are here. He lives with his wife and three children in a — in a bunny.
BEN KATT 3:11
In a bunny — bunny — and a bunny.
JEN AKS 3:16
And a bunny? What are we talking about?
BEN KATT 3:19
A bunny-shaped house.
JEN AKS 3:20
Wait, seriously?
BEN KATT 3:22
No, no, no. We have a bunny. We have a bunny. And we have a puppy now too — six months old. I gotta update that.
JEN AKS 3:28
Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm allergic to bunnies, but they are so damn cute. How is it having a bunny?
BEN KATT 3:34
Oh, fantastic. It's a Holland Lop, so it's got these floppy ears. Posey is the name. Posey's fantastic. Our gateway pet — that's why we have a dog now too.
JEN AKS 3:43
Oh, to keep her company?
BEN KATT 3:45
Well, no — because we were like, well, we love this pet. And now our kids finally convinced us how great our house is with a pet. So then they're like, we need a dog. And we did.
JEN AKS 3:54
Oh my God, I love it. Well, I am so honored that you're here. I read your bio before — I actually read it a few times — because it's so wildly impressive, but also so resonant for the work that I'm doing and the mission that I'm on. And I'd love to start with one of your taglines. I believe you say, "the way forward is within."
BEN KATT 4:19
Absolutely.
JEN AKS 4:20
All the time. That's just right. I'd love for you to talk about that — what do you mean, and why is it the way forward?
BEN KATT 4:29
Yeah. Well, I think in our world, it's very common to live an externally referenced life — meaning we are very often living in accordance with what others expect of us, what others need, what others say is the way. And also, when there's some stirring inside of us, we want to look for some external thing to fill that or fix it or make sense of it. And the whole idea of "the way forward is within" is to say: stop looking outward. In fact, you have this inner authority — it's always there. This calm, this wisdom, this joy, this presence.
And over time, what's happened is we've forgotten that. We've lost access to it. But I'm passionate about helping people reconnect with that, reclaim it, and start to live a life from the inside out. So, to sort of land that — say you're at a crossroads in your life, or you're feeling stuck. It's very common to want to maybe rearrange the chairs — like the chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Life's not really working anymore, so you're just trying to rearrange where you live, who you're with, what you do. But what I invite people into is to say: go within first. That's where you're gonna find the answers. That's where you're gonna get the clarity. That's where you're gonna remember who you really are. You're gonna figure out what you need to shed — what's maybe blocking you from expressing your authentic identity — and live from the inside out. That's gonna guide you forward.
Now, how do we do that? I mean, you know well from your work. It's actually — I always say it's actually pretty simple, meaning it's not complicated, but it's gonna take some time. Practice is so critical. What are the practices that are gonna help you tap into stillness? What are the practices that help you get quiet? What are the things that help you tune in to that inner voice so that you can hear it, pay attention to it, and have the courage to live a life in accordance with what it's guiding you into?
JEN AKS 6:39
Yeah. How did you arrive here? Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? Were you someone that was living externally and then found your way within, and that led you to this work? I'd love to hear a little bit about that.
BEN KATT 6:53
Yeah. It's interesting because there are kind of two threads there. One is that from a young age, I felt this connection to something more. I grew up in a family and a religious context where I was part of a church. And that church was a very supportive, loving community. And I'm thankful for how it gave me a container to develop this inner life, this spiritual life — and to say that this matters, this is important, and this is a thing that can animate and energize the work we do in the world and how we serve the collective. So I had that, and I'm thankful for it.
Right down the road, there's a lot to unpack — I sort of outgrew that delivery system for that kind of inner life that I had. I outgrew it. What do you mean, outgrew it? Well, like my perspectives — you could say beliefs, my inner knowing — things evolved. Where it's like, I sort of outgrew it like a potted plant that keeps growing. Eventually those roots extending in the soil — the pot's not big enough for those roots to keep going deeper.
So it's like I outgrew that container, so that I could continue to grow and unfold and figure out my purpose. I bring that up to say: yes, from a young age, there was this call inward, this tending to the inner life.
But also, I graduated college and went straight into divinity school. It's so funny — you read my bio. I laugh every time. I'm a Master of Divinity, Jen. I'm a Master of Divinity. How funny is that?
JEN AKS 8:31
Right? Isn't it funny to have that read back to you?
BEN KATT 8:34
What a funny name for a degree — as if that's something possible. I think what it means is I'm a seeker and I'm an explorer.
JEN AKS 8:43
But it was actually a degree, right?
BEN KATT 8:45
It's called an MDiv. It's like if you're a pastor or a reverend — that's what it is. I ended up getting that degree, and then my wife and I moved to Seattle when I was in my late 20s, and I started a church there. There's a lot to unpack there, but really central to our work was this community center we created, where we were building mutually reciprocal relationships with people dealing with homelessness, mental illness, addiction. There were women caught up in prostitution and sex trafficking, and we created a community space and learned and grew together. And yes, we helped and supported them, but we were being transformed.
So I'm in that work — and just bear with me here for a second — it's meaningful, it's impactful, it's even, dare I say, virtuous work. People would look at that and say, wow, bravo. And so what happened in that work, because there's a lot of need and a lot of people to help, is I did start to unwittingly embrace a kind of savior complex. Like: I need to achieve and do and perform in order to help people. And if I don't, then what happens? And so at that point in my life — that started almost 20 years ago now — in the years that followed, it's like I lost connection to my soul. It's like my soul kind of turned off the lights and snuck out the back door. So I started going through the motions in the work.
And it took an event — kind of an epiphany about 10 years ago — to wake me up again and see that I had been living that externally referenced life. I am what I do. I am what I achieve. I am what others think of me and how they feel about me. As opposed to moving and operating from that inner compass.
JEN AKS 10:39
Can you talk about that — sorry to chime in — but I'm curious about that. What did that disconnection feel like? And how did you recognize that you wanted to shift and get back into alignment again?
BEN KATT 10:53
Yeah. I'll start with the recognition — that'll help. So I was out on a run in the early morning in Seattle where I lived, and it's raining, as it often does. I was running around this little lake, like a two-and-a-half-mile loop. And typically I get to this hill, charge up the hill, turn the corner, run the last 10 blocks home, and then like, die — clean up, breakfast with the family, then go about my work and make an impact.
And this one particular day, I get to the top of the hill and I just stopped in my tracks. Because this voice welled up inside me — this voice from within — and it said: if you don't have your heart, you have nothing.
JEN AKS 11:34
If you don't have your heart — was it actually like a voice you heard?
BEN KATT 11:36
Yeah. It was clear as day. It was clear as day. And I just stopped. I pulled out my AirPods and I walked home in the rain. I was all sweaty. I just climbed into bed. I knew something was up.
And in the time that followed, at a very minimum, I realized: whoa, I'm burned out. I cannot keep going forward and showing up in the world the same way I had. Something needed to change. And then in the days and months that followed, through a lot of introspection and support, I realized — oh. Underneath that burnout, which had happened before, by the way, there was this allegiance. I call it the three-headed monster: achievement, perfection, and people-pleasing — performing to please others. That had become my operating pattern.
So as I look back, I say: wow, actually, something had been trying to get my attention for a while. To the original part of the question — what did that feel like? It felt like going to meetings related to work and just not being into it, being exhausted by it. It felt like helping people — whether staff or volunteers or the people at our community center — and being really edgy, short, and not having a lot of capacity to deal with things. It felt like being increasingly withdrawn in my marriage and being a distant father to young kids. It felt like feeling alone in terms of my friendships.
So there were warning signs there. And that voice that came to me — if you don't have your heart, you have nothing — using the mythologist Joseph Campbell's language, it was a call to adventure, inviting me into something new.
But really the call was coming in all these subtle ways before that. I just kept pushing it aside. It's like: I gotta keep going, I gotta keep helping people, I gotta keep making money, I gotta do all these things. So I was avoiding it. And I think probably a lot of people can relate to that at various stages of their life.
JEN AKS 13:55
Totally. It's so interesting — "call to adventure" — and you saw it as, okay, I'm gonna walk through this, I'm gonna explore what this adventure is. I think a lot of people would be like, holy shit, what does this mean? But you actually felt like this was a positive call. How did you know it was positive? Oh my gosh — yeah?
BEN KATT 14:19
Such a good question. Well, what's funny is when I got home that day and I crawled into bed, my wife was like, what is going on here? And I had all these meetings and things on my schedule. She said, you just need to take a day to reset. I wasn't very good at resting, go figure. But I had one meeting that day that she's like, you should keep this one — and it was with my mentor, Ron.
Ron and I had met regularly. He was in a totally different line of work — a corporate executive coach — but supporting me, volunteering, as a dear friend. And I had a lunch with him, so I go meet him at this shopping mall restaurant, whatever it was. I'm sitting across the booth from him, spilling my guts, like I don't even know what I'm saying. And he looks at me and says, "I want you to know — you're a lot more buoyant than you realize. You're a lot more buoyant than you realize." Meaning: you're feeling a lot, you feel like you're drowning, you feel like you can't handle this. And he's saying: you can. Which, as I interpret that now, what he's saying is: you have within you everything you need to navigate this. You just have to trust it.
So I had that. And then after lunch, we went for a walk in the mall, and there was like a Papyrus store. He's like, oh, come in here — and he bought me a journal. And he said, write it down, Ben. Write it down. And I had had a journaling practice, but at that point I realized my journaling had become about looking forward — what's next, what am I gonna do, what am I gonna accomplish — as opposed to looking inward. And that's where a shift happened. I started to dig in there.
Now, I'll just tag something here, which is to say: what happened there with Ron? He led me right into the first stage of the hero's journey, if you will — using Joseph Campbell's language — and that's to answer the call, the call to adventure. The second one is: get help. And that's what happened. I walked right into help that day. And when you start to say yes to this call, help arrives. Nature supports you. And for me, and for all of us, it actually emboldens us to keep going — oh, something is happening. I need to move forward. Keep going. I can do this.
JEN AKS 16:51
Oh my gosh, that's so beautiful. Something you said — he said to you, "you just need to trust it." And I hear that all the time: you just need to trust. And the thing is, that's hard. It's not like, oh, just go trust, and then you feel better. It is — I'd love to pause for a second on trust. Because trusting the guidance from within, many people don't know if it's right or wrong.
And I always say — and I'm truly not being cheesy about this — I really don't believe there's any wrong way. Because I think if we go down a path and it doesn't serve us, I actually think it does. I keep tripping myself because I think all of it serves us. There's a lesson within all of it. I do believe that. As hard as that lesson might be, it is meant for us. And it's just up to us to lean in, listen, and get curious, right? But that trust is so hard. How do we know what voice to follow? What do you think about that?
BEN KATT 17:54
Yeah. I mean, I totally agree — if you're asking "can I trust it or not," just take the next right step. Just take a step. Maybe you'll hit some rumble strips, or maybe you'll hit a curb. But it will correct you back. It might take longer, but that's not the point. You'll grow and learn from it. So make a decision — if it's "wrong," it's not ultimately wrong. I totally agree with you.
But once again, you're leading me right down this path. These are the 10 chapters from my book and my own journey. The third step — and this is just so fun that you're guiding me into this — is actually: let go. Well, what does that mean? That's hard. But here's what's really critical to growing that inner trust: it's really helpful to take an honest inventory of our operating patterns.
Can I share a little story? So I like to say, sometimes, "a lot of people don't know — I used to be in professional football." And people go, really? And I was like, yeah — but it wasn't the NFL, Jen. It was actually arena football. Okay, arena football. And then — actually, I wasn't a player. I was a mascot. Okay, I was a mascot. And I wasn't the game-time mascot — you know, the one who got to shoot the T-shirt cannon.
JEN AKS 19:23
Wait, is this like the peeling back — like you'd start saying this, this is the story I tell, and I'm telling it to you now?
BEN KATT 19:28
Like, I wasn't pro football, but I was a mascot, and they sent me to elementary schools and weird parades. That's what I did. Okay, so why do I bring this story up? Because when I started that job — my name was Blitz. I was a gray, furry, fuzzy rhinoceros. Blitz. Oh my God. And I went to the first meeting, and this intern for the organization was walking me and a few other people who were the low-level mascots like me. And he said: there are two rules — two laws — when you're a mascot. Number one, don't ever take your head off. Don't ever take your head off. And number two, don't ever speak. A mascot can do all these gestures, but they don't talk.
JEN AKS 20:10
Oh right — the costume, the mascot, the rhino head. Yeah, yeah.
BEN KATT 20:15
You know — don't ever take your head off, and don't ever speak. What the hell does this have to do with your question? Well, I realized later in my journey that those two mascot rules were how I was living my life. One: don't let people see your true face. Two: don't speak with your authentic voice. Don't let people hear that.
And so this image of the mascot — or think of it as the masks we wear. In the language of Carl Jung, it's the persona — the ego's way of putting itself forward to fit in, to get its needs met, to stay safe.
And we learn this at a young age. And guess what, Jen? It's really helpful, it's really important, it's really powerful — it helps us survive. However, at some point in our lives, we get to a point where we've outgrown it. This is the operating pattern that doesn't work anymore. And so this work of letting go — it's not just about letting go of a job or a relationship. It's deeper work on this inner journey. It's actually asking: what are these operating patterns? What's the mask I've been wearing that I've come to believe is authentically me? I'm an achiever. I help people. I'm an organizer. I control things. I'm a lone wolf. There's a million different masks we can wear. We can all name our own.
To the degree that we are firmly wearing that mask, we will have a more difficult time accessing the wisdom within us. Because if I'm trying to make a decision from the conscious state of the achiever, I'm probably gonna dive into some other achieving thing right away — as opposed to maybe the riskier, more subtle thing I'm actually being invited into.
So there's some acknowledgement, naming, and beginning to shed or let go of those masks. That helps us more clearly tune in. Does this make sense?
JEN AKS 22:23
No, it totally makes sense. It's really interesting. First of all, what a metaphor. And by the way, I dressed up as Battletoads for Nickelodeon when I was in high school, and I too had the same message — but I didn't go as deep as you. Like, they told me, don't take your mask off and don't talk to the children. And I'm just gonna tell you really quick — because I was Battletoads, these little kids were all over the tail of this costume and were swinging me. They were grabbing, they were like, "Battletoads!" And they were actually punching because the costume had these big muscles. And I turned and I looked at one of the kids and I said, "Don't you touch my tail." It was a rule not to speak, but I had to speak because this kid would not leave me alone. Then I got fired.
BEN KATT 23:24
Well, I got kicked — I was getting kicked by little kids. And I just have to share: it made me emotional because I didn't talk, which is funny. I was like, I am out of here. And this is a funny story — I go back into the principal's office, which was like my changing room, and I take my head off. Picture me: I'm sitting at a principal's desk, and suddenly there's a knock at the door. I'm like, yeah? A voice — an adult — says, "Hey, Blitz." I'm like, yeah. And a guy opens the door, and he sees me a little emotional. He's like, "Oh, you're not leaving because those kids were being mean to you, are you?" And I'm going, oh no, no, I'm fine. And he just looks at me and goes, "It's okay. I'm a clown."
So — the idea of when you're learning to tune in and listen to your inner wisdom: don't start with the big things. Start with the small things. Like, don't start with, oh, I'm moving across the country. No — actually, I don't want to go to this party tonight, even though usually my head would say go. Something in me is like, eh, it just feels off. Trust that. Or, go to this grocery store instead of that one — maybe there's some purpose you'll find. You might not always know, but do that.
The other thing I talk about is: once you let go — once you remove those masks or those operating patterns — what happens? Well, then you're in the unknown. It's uncomfortable. It's like this whole new terrain. And one of the things you need to do is befriend that space. Befriend the darkness. So much comes up in that space, and this is all about deepening your awareness and understanding of who you really are. It can feel very scary at first. Keep going — it's okay. Revelation happens. So that's a little bit of what I was talking about.
JEN AKS 25:12
I love it all. And what I talk about is beyond that awakening and that awareness — like, why does it matter? Yes, it matters because we need to know ourselves in order to make the right decisions for our lives. We need to know ourselves in order to choose the right relationships, the right jobs, to make the moves and do all the things. And a lot of my work is focused around embodied leadership and really making impact in the world — with our children, in companies, nonprofits, the businesses we've created, communities we're living inside of, students on campuses. This message is really for everyone. It is about awakening that wisdom from within, learning how to trust it and be led by it, so that we can be fulfilled ourselves and make impact in the world.
So I'm curious, before we go — can you talk a little bit about that from your perspective? Because clearly this whole awakening and journey has served you. You've written a book, you're doing all these incredible things, and you're a leader in so many ways. I'd love for you to explore that with us.
BEN KATT 26:23
Yes, okay, I love that. So what I was sort of walking through — or you were leading me into — is this framework based on Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. And I lived through this thing, and then I said, how would I describe it? So: you leave the familiar — that's phase one. You fall into the unknown — phase two. Phase three is rising to wholeness. And in that third phase, anytime the hero, the heroine, the human goes on this journey — and this is a universal pattern, by the way — to really go on this journey into awakening and evolution, what's happening is it's never just about you.
Campbell uses this language of the hero returns with a boon. What's the boon? A boon is a blessing. So I say one of the steps in my framework is: you give your gift. There's a gift. So if you've done all this inner work, and yet still this is just about you — your own success, what you have — I'm sorry, you need to keep going. There's something else you need to shed. Because at the end of the day, always and forever, this journey is about making a more generative, wholehearted contribution to the world. We heal ourselves. We become more whole, so we can help heal others and help them become more whole.
I'm exactly with you on that. And I think it's really important to highlight this because sometimes people can listen to these conversations and say, I'm just so busy, I don't have time to slow down, I don't have time to get still and go within and do these practices and be in my body and meditate. But here's the thing: without doing that, you're actually working against yourself. Because when you do this work, you're rewiring — you're resetting your nervous system. You are cultivating your being so that when you're in a room, when you're in a conversation, you are in alignment and you're not reacting to all the things around you. You can be a stable, calm — dare I say, loving — presence in the midst of whatever's going on. And that is what we need so desperately in our world.
And just to say one more thing, because this captures a bit of my journey: I was in the helping professions, I was helping a lot of people, I was making a big impact. But when I lost myself, I lost my way. I was organizationally working for good, working for change — but in my being, I was communicating and embodying a different message. Anxiety, fear, conflict. I've seen this with so many leaders: you're doing good work, but because you're not tending to your being, you're actually at another level working against the exact thing you want to be about. So this is where it's so critical: what I'm doing for myself is also for the collective.
JEN AKS 29:31
Yeah, yeah. What's coming to me too is that — yes, go in and lead from that place and find happiness and connection with what we're doing. And it's not even about — like, some people are like, I can't, I'm not in that service world, I have to pay my bills, I'm doing this other job, and I find passion elsewhere. And that's totally fine. Everybody's got their own path. But it is about that connection to self, so that no matter what the job is — whether it's your life purpose or your service-driven business, or if it's not — you're connected somehow, and then serving in other aspects of your life. Because there are people in the world that go to work because they get the paycheck, it pays the bills, and then they find that passion and that alignment and that service elsewhere in their life. And that is a leader as well. It's not like leadership is just corporate America — leadership is being a human being, being an example for your neighbor or for your child, right?
BEN KATT 30:34
Yes, yes. We don't need everyone going on an inner journey and becoming a coach — which I am, right — but you don't have to do that. You might go on this journey and end up back in the same office, in the same building, with the same people, with more connection. And it also brings up this idea of: well, what is purpose?
One of my teachers talks about the word dharma, which a lot of people understand from Buddhism. But its origins in the philosophy of India — dharma at the end of the day is about behavior, it's about spontaneous right action. Spontaneous right action. It's about your particular role in the evolution of things. So what does all that mean? It means that purpose — let's get away from the idea that purpose is the professional expression of something, like a job. No. Purpose is like: Jen, in this moment, when you're interacting with someone because you're aligned and in tune with yourself, how actually are you able to meet them where they're at? There might be a word you need to say, a question you need to ask, just a smile you need to give. This is all purpose. And if we're not tuned in, we're gonna show up in moments and miss them. We're gonna miss the possibility to make a generative contribution in that moment — which then has a ripple effect on everything.
JEN AKS 32:09
Yeah, totally. I love it all so much. You're such an example of all of this. Your story — the connection and disconnection and reconnection to self — is such an inspiration, and one that I think people are gonna want to learn more about. So tell us where they can find your book. Tell our listeners how they can find you and connect with you and learn more deeply about what it is you do.
BEN KATT 32:35
Thank you, Jen. So the book is called The Way Home: Discovering the Hero's Journey to Wholeness at Midlife. That's a long subtitle. But you can find it anywhere books are available — anywhere. You can ask your local bookstore. If they don't have it, they can order it. Obviously Amazon, things like that. And if you prefer audiobook, if you have Spotify Premium you should get it for free, or you can do Audible, Apple Books, etc. I auditioned for the part — thank you very much — and I got it. I got to read my own book, which was super fun.
JEN AKS 33:02
Yeah, you did that too. So fun, right?
BEN KATT 33:05
Isn't that great? Oh my God.
JEN AKS 33:09
I mean, I know that's a choice, and I get that — but I really enjoyed that process.
BEN KATT 33:14
Right, right. I can't imagine it — for my book. Not saying that for other people, yeah. But my website is BenKattOfficial.com. And also I'm part of something called Modern Elder Academy, which is the world's first midlife wisdom school — meawisdom.com. I regularly lead workshops at their campuses in Santa Fe and Baja, California. I have some coming up. I'd love to see people. But otherwise, thanks so much for your time. And I'm not surprised you were also a mascot at one point. This does not surprise me, Jen.
JEN AKS 33:47
I love that. Well, I have so many further questions, so I know we're gonna continue to talk. And very quickly — the last thing that's just coming to me before we go — I'm just curious: do you ever speak to younger adults? Your book is for midlife, and I'm just wondering, do you speak to young men and women in college, in high school? Because I find — and I'm really focused on this right now — really helping this demographic understand the importance of connection from within, wisdom from within, emotional intelligence, and how it can really serve their life.
BEN KATT 34:21
Yeah. So I do it every day, because I have three teens and they don't want to hear from me. But also — I'll say, I'm ready and available, so it's not something I do a lot of. However, I love your question. Because the thing about midlife — I had a publisher, grateful for my publisher, but they wanted that in the title. And I was like, it's not just for people in midlife. I was in early midlife when I went on this journey, the first round of it at least. This inner journey — it's for everyone. And I think, especially in these times that we're living in, with so much chaos and many challenges, this invitation to go within and access your authentic wisdom is so relevant for all of us. So if anyone out there is a teen, in college, whatever — check out the book. Absolutely. Reach out. Would love to support you.
And Jen, thank you, thank you.
JEN AKS 35:08
Oh my gosh, thank you. It's been so fun. Stay here for a quick second — I'm gonna say goodbye to everybody. And we will see you next week on Wisdom From Within, where human stories awaken the leadership from within. We've all got it, and I'm excited to see you again and deepen your wisdom even further. See you next week.